The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Got a beginners' question? No matter how elementary, our friendly forum community and magazine writers will answer it.

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby david48 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 9:39 pm

Thanks Gfamily:
In answer to your questions:

1. I'm prepared to accept, that the measurement of the sizes of these so-called "extra-solar" planets has nothing to do with their diameter. Or with anything else, except illusion. The "planets" are probably just some instrumental or observational artefact. Which will be exposed in a few years' time.

2. As regards the Sun, I simply repeat that ultra-high-resolution images of the solar disc should reveal some change in its diameter, if it's consuming hydrogen at the almost unbelievable rate that you suggest.

3. I think that modern Science is getting into the realms of fantasy. With its ""Quantum Mechanics" and "General Relativity". These are blatantly self-contradictory. They may make the calculations come out right, but do they make any kind of sense?
david48
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby Gfamily2 » Tue Sep 08, 2015 10:04 pm

david48 wrote:Thanks Gfamily:
In answer to your questions:

1. I'm prepared to accept, that the measurement of the sizes of these so-called "extra-solar" planets has nothing to do with their diameter. Or with anything else, except illusion. The "planets" are probably just some instrumental or observational artefact. Which will be exposed in a few years' time.

2. As regards the Sun, I simply repeat that ultra-high-resolution images of the solar disc should reveal some change in its diameter, if it's consuming hydrogen at the almost unbelievable rate that you suggest.

3. I think that modern Science is getting into the realms of fantasy. With its ""Quantum Mechanics" and "General Relativity". These are blatantly self-contradictory. They may make the calculations come out right, but do they make any kind of sense?


OK - clearly you have no interest in the science of Astronomy.
Enjoy the pretty pictures - I think that's about all you're left with
Scopes: Meade 8" SCT, Skywatcher 127mm Mak, Raffle winner of SW ST80
For imaging: Pentax K5, Asda webcam, Star Adventurer (new toy)
For companionship: Mid Cheshire Astronomical Group.
(Not a moderator)
Gfamily2
 
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:38 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby Gfamily2 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:21 am

david48 wrote:Thanks Gfamily:
In answer to your questions:

1. I'm prepared to accept, that the measurement of the sizes of these so-called "extra-solar" planets has nothing to do with their diameter. Or with anything else, except illusion. The "planets" are probably just some instrumental or observational artefact. Which will be exposed in a few years' time.
Please explain your understanding of how these measurements are made.
Then your reasons for proposing their falsity.
2. As regards the Sun, I simply repeat that ultra-high-resolution images of the solar disc should reveal some change in its diameter, if it's consuming hydrogen at the almost unbelievable rate that you suggest.
Please explain your understanding of how the diameter of the Solar disc is actually measured.
Then explain how this might have been measured 200 years ago.
Then explain how you think that a reduction of 4ft from 868,000 miles might be measured.
3. I think that modern Science is getting into the realms of fantasy. With its ""Quantum Mechanics" and "General Relativity". These are blatantly self-contradictory. They may make the calculations come out right, but do they make any kind of sense?
Explain the 'blatancy' - in simple terms - such that someone like you can understand.
Scopes: Meade 8" SCT, Skywatcher 127mm Mak, Raffle winner of SW ST80
For imaging: Pentax K5, Asda webcam, Star Adventurer (new toy)
For companionship: Mid Cheshire Astronomical Group.
(Not a moderator)
Gfamily2
 
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:38 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby david48 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:33 pm

Well, "General Relativity" says that Gravity is not a real force, but only an illusion caused by matter smoothly distorting Space-Time.

Whereas "Quantum Mechanics" says Gravity is a real force, and is caused by individual, discrete particles - "Gravitons".

Isn't that a blatant contradiction?
david48
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby Gfamily2 » Thu Sep 10, 2015 5:41 pm

david48 wrote:Well, "General Relativity" says that Gravity is not a real force, but only an illusion caused by matter smoothly distorting Space-Time.

Whereas "Quantum Mechanics" says Gravity is a real force, and is caused by individual, discrete particles - "Gravitons".

Isn't that a blatant contradiction?

Where does QM say anything about Gravity?
Scopes: Meade 8" SCT, Skywatcher 127mm Mak, Raffle winner of SW ST80
For imaging: Pentax K5, Asda webcam, Star Adventurer (new toy)
For companionship: Mid Cheshire Astronomical Group.
(Not a moderator)
Gfamily2
 
Posts: 452
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 10:38 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby david48 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:28 pm

QM doesn't say anything about Gravity, because it can't account for Gravity. QM basically says everything is made of "particles". These particles are so ludicrously prolific, that all the time new ones keep being "found".

Like the Higgs Boson, which was supposedly "found" recently, though I don't really believe in its existence - it's more likely some kind of instrumental artefact. Bear in mind, that all these "particles" are not directly seen. They're only picked up by readings from instruments, which could be wrongly calibrated.

Particles, shmarticles. I don't believe in any of them - except electrons, protons and neutrons.

I might believe in a "Graviton", but will it be found soon?
david48
 
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby Juel » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:41 pm

*Please excuse the following numbers and calculation as they're from memory and some quick calculator work ;)

In figures; the sun burns about 620 million of hydrogen tonnes per second

By far most of that is turned into helium, which stays inside the sun. The mass loss due to particle loss and energy radiation is somewhere around 4-6 million tons per second if I remember correctly.

The sun's mass is aprox. 2x10^27 tons. The mass loss per year would then be between 6,3x10^-12% and 9,5x10^-12% which I think we can agree is quite a tiny bit (assuming a constant mass loss for the sun's lifespan till now (which we probably cant, but bear with me), that would be a maximum of 0,04% since the fusion started some four and a half billion years ago).
If any shrinkage due to this mass loss is measurable, I'm not the one to tell.

But the mass loss wouldn't necessarily only result in shrinkage, as the mass loss would also affect the suns gravitaional pull on its outer layers, possibly resulting in a tiny bit of growth. Someone smarter than me should answer how much (if any) these two would offset.

In any case, in a few billion years, as the sun enters the giant stage, it will swell up. We will have to worry about that when the time comes :)
Juel
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 12:04 pm

Re: The Sun: Why Doesn't It Shrink?

Postby Supercooper » Mon Mar 07, 2016 10:44 pm

And there's always the probability that the reduced pressure would allow the internal pressure to pump up the volume of the Sun... as is the case! Eventually...

Another consideration - Whilst the hydrogen is busy becoming Helium - There's NO mass loss... So why would there be a change in size anyway? Photons have zero mass - So whilst the sun is converting H into H2 there is no loss of mass to shrink the Sun.
________________________________________________________________________________________
For My FREE Telescope Help Website: http://supercooper.jimdo.com/

Using fab Helios f8 150mm Achromatic Refractor on SkyWatcher EQ5 - enjoing the views!
Supercooper
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 10:14 am

Previous

Return to Ask a silly (astronomy) question

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests